The Xunlai Marketplace thread

[romeus petrus]

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Those auctions also have a very limited public. An auction house in GW would be seen by everyone, so you'd be bidding against every other player. Only the richest will win as prices climb through the stratosphere.

It's called supply and demand. The basis to any free market.

[MSecorsky]

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

It's called supply and demand. The basis to any free market.

Supply and demand is better represented by the marketplace where you have fixed prices that fluctuate gradually over time with supply and demand. An auction house results in artificially increased prices by the limited population that has the resources to control said prices.

For example Joe Wanderer finds in his adventures the rare uber-leet sword of pwnage. There is a select group of people that are willing to pay ridiculously high prices for this, so when J.W. puts it on auction for 50 Plat (he wants a quick sale so he can get back to the important stuff), someone jumps in with a 100K + 50e price. Great for J.W. in this case, but now the vast majority of people are locked out of getting this sword. Even as numbers increase, the elite few keep paying high prices to keep their artificial value up and their e-peen erect.

However, if J.W. puts it on market and gets his 50 Plat (he's still happy), the next guy will see that and figure that's the price for this sword. He finds one and puts it on market for 50 Plat wanting his piece of the pie as well. He gets is. Overall, the "value" of the sword is now dropping into the affordable for everyone.

[Aerian_Skybane]

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Car Auctions
Real Estate foreclosure auctions
Police Confiscated items

To name a few, all sell for a much lower price than their market value. Not to mention how auction house prices would pretty much eliminate the scams of selling fairly common items as "very rare".

Sigh,

Car Auctions - Depends on the auction. For "cheap" car auctions, they are usually repoed, old, or excess, where in the dealer either makes a large amount of profit or still makes a profit while unloading large denomination cars. Or they are high end car auctions where the prices skyrocket. Bad comparison #1. Basically, "white" items in GW could be offed for cheap in an Auction House, but anything remotely of general value would skyrocket in price because of demand.

Real Estate Foreclosure - Almost similar to the above. There are no mansions or moderately sized houses that would be slightly cheaper. It is a profit engine through other means than direct purchase, which is not available in GW (everything is done in direct cash with a face value and no "percentages"). Bad comparison #2.

Police Auctions - This one is the easiest to debunk. The department, town, etc, stand to make a HUGE profit (100% most of the time), reduce backlot overhead, etc etc by selling off those cars/items repossesed or retired. There is no such system in Guild Wars, other than running out of inventory space, which can be addressed through extra characters quite easily. Bad comparison #3.

Auctions in the real world are not at all like the auctions in the MMO world. People with money will spike prices because they want it, and there is no real world negative to spending virtual money (well, to sane people, and even most of the insane people). Even rich people in real life must be careful with copious amounts of money. Except for stupid rich people, but thats another topic entirely.

A set marketplace price would be much more of a "fair" market in GW. Just think about item availability versus item vanity and practicality, and a low end and high end fixed market would easily develop and allow a competitive, yet evenly priced, multiple market price system to work.

[romeus petrus]

High demand = high price (which is a fact unless you love to argue)

Buyer #1 sees an item that he likes at the auction house and bids say 100k for it.

Buyer # 2 sees the same item and decides that this item (to him) is worth more than that and he bids 200k on it

Buyer #3 wants it even more and bids 300k for it

The more ppl wanting it = the more the demand = the higher the price is going to be.

Whereas in a market place the item would have sold for 100k and the seller would have lost 200k because he had no idea how much in demand that item was.

Clearly the reverse is true, as if there was no demand for the item.

[Neo Nugget]

Would ectos go down if you are able to buy with just platinum? ....like all the money would be sent to storage.

[Pandora's box]

I don't want auctions, but a player shop where everyone can put his/her goods and set a price. Auctions take too much time. It needs to be an automated system where players have no concern but setting a price; trade automatically takes place whenever someone buys. No confirmations or whatever needed.

[Inger]

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

High demand = high price (which is a fact unless you love to argue)

Buyer #1 sees an item that he likes at the auction house and bids say 100k for it.

Buyer # 2 sees the same item and decides that this item (to him) is worth more than that and he bids 200k on it

Buyer #3 wants it even more and bids 300k for it

The more ppl wanting it = the more the demand = the higher the price is going to be.

Whereas in a market place the item would have sold for 100k and the seller would have lost 200k because he had no idea how much in demand that item was.

Clearly the reverse is true, as if there was no demand for the item.

How can you write this and not say that an AH is manipulating/inflating prices?

If i'm an extremely rich GW player and I see some brand spanking new item that just fell from the zaishen chest I'll be able to bid 100k + XX ectos. This skyrockets the price of the item putting it well out of the range of every casual GW player. You've stated yourself that the AH causes prices to rise. Call this case 1.

Had the XMP been in place rather than an AH for that situation, the person who got the extremely rare new drop instead lists the item at a particular value say 100k. Suddenly almost the entire GW market has access to that item, the person who clicks the fastest is the winner and gains said item. Call this case 2.

Now consider both of these situations, as more of the new rare item are found, in the situation of case 1, each and every one of those items are going to be based around that huge inflated price it was first sold at. THe item is posted with starting bids well out of the range of most players. In case 2, the price is set around what the player chooses to set it at. Heres where supply and demand comes in, if the player sets his price too high, no one will buy said item so he lowers it to try and create demand. Extremely rich players are unable to raise the price that the seller is asking for and thus the item is available to more.


To try and use RL example, lets say a brand new car has just been released. This car isn't necessarily extremely difficult to produce nor is it made of extremely high end materials it might cost only 20 or 30 thousand to make, however it is new. The company who produces the car doesn't specifiy a set price for it and instead opens the car up for auction. Some extremely rich buisness man sees this car and thinks, "I don't have this vehicle and its a brand new design." He goes out and buys it for 1 000 000. The car company notices how much was paid for it and thus sets an asking price for this car at the 800 000 mark. The price was set as a reflection of what the person the extremely rich person decided to pay for it.

Now if the car company sets the price at 60 000 or 70 000, thats their asking price it won't change. An extremely rich person will just buy it and that price while the car is also in the price range of the general public.



I'm not saying an AH is bad or it wouldn't fit into the GW economy, I'm just saying that its certainly possible for an AH to manipulate prices and cause infaltion.

[Muspellsheimr]

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

High demand = high price (which is a fact unless you love to argue)

Only a part of the equation, and therefor false. Example: What do you think the demand for toilet paper is? Pretty damn high. Yet due to high supply, it is cheap. -Bad example, but it gets the point across.

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Buyer #1 sees an item that he likes at the auction house and bids say 100k for it.

Buyer # 2 sees the same item and decides that this item (to him) is worth more than that and he bids 200k on it

Buyer #3 wants it even more and bids 300k for it

AKA an Auction would inflate prices - exactly what you said. Don't try to deny it.

[romeus petrus]

Originally Posted by Muspellsheimr

AKA an Auction would inflate prices - exactly what you said. Don't try to deny it.

What you call inflate, sellers will call real value.

[arcanemacabre]

I fail to see how the xunlai market, and not an auction house, would be any different than how trading is now, only simplified. Buying/selling would work the exact same way - seller sets a price and advertises as that price, then waits for a buyer to bite. The only difference is mass availability. That's it.

[Muspellsheimr]

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

The only difference is mass availability. That's it.

Exactly. That is why it is so badly needed.

Think about it like this - you can go to a city to try and sell something. You will have at most 1,000 possible customers, assuming you use the party search. The odds of you finding a buyer are low, unless it is something in very high demand.

Now, you list the item in the Marketplace - you now have 100,000 potential customers. Easily 100 times the chance of you finding a buyer. This is not including the factor of more people looking to buy because it has been simplified.

The same is even more true for buying obscure items. Because of the hassle involved, people don't bother trying to sell most upgrade components. With the Marketplace, they will have little reason not to list them, and so it will be significantly easier for a buyer to find them.

It will also make getting accurate price checks much easier, and will not have nearly the same level of inflation on high-end equipment an Auction House would cause.

[Yawgmoth]

Auctions don't inflate prices above the real value, except when 2 or more uninformed buyers go on a bid war on something very rare / unique. In most cases that seemingly ridiculous price was just The real value of that item at that moment. Traders that would buy items just to list them at a higher price should be well aware of the item's value and potential to sell high. This applies to all trading systems - auctions or buyout only marketplaces or personal shops.

Instant buy marketplace is faster and often better for both buyers and sellers, but there are cases when a real Auction House is much more fair - the case of extreme rare / limited items.
Just imagine something like a rare contest prize miniature (like a mini Oni) being put for sale on Xunlai Marketplace by a lucky winner. Not aware of it's potential selling value, he can set the price at for example 100k thinking that it would be satisfying enough. So it gets instantly bought by the first person who sees it and has the money, possibly by a marketplace camper waiting for amazing deals, and leaving no chance for the whole masses of buyers that would gladly pay 200k or 300k or even those who wanted it so much they'd pay 500k (about the going price of it 2-3 months ago). Now depending on the buyer, he can just keep the mini, completely removing it from the market, or relist at a much higher price or keep and sell after 3 months for 1 million+.

Auction house with a bidding system and no buyout price leaves the chance for the entire playerbase to see the item before it gets sold. It allows an item rare enough that only one would be sold at a given time to be sold for the highest price a person somewhere can offer for it, no lucky cheap deals, most fair for the seller and most fair competiton between buyers.
Fast selling system is much better for the common goods, like greens, nonunique golds, weapon mods or common minis, all the goods so abundant that nobody would have the power to control their market.

[arcanemacabre]

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

It allows an item rare enough that only one would be sold at a given time to be sold for the highest price a person somewhere can offer for it, no lucky cheap deals, most fair for the seller and most fair competiton between buyers.

For the most expensive items, like those rare minipets, this probably won't be the best system. But then they still have outside auctions (like GWG auction), the party window, and the trade channel. Hell, there might even be an option to put something in the market with no set price and just an "offer" or other text to cause people to have to whisper them to make a deal; much like how the party search is now, except global.

I still don't see how an auction house would be any better than this. I'd much rather just put my items up for sale with a reasonable price tag, and let people buy at their leisure. It makes everything much easier for everyone, without the hassle of bid wars and sniping. It's also easier on the devs to make such a system.

[Cacheelma]

All these "auction house makes things more expensive than direct sale" arguement is just lame and uneducated, at best.

Who says you HAVE TO BID in an auction house? Look no further than guruauction. It has "buy out" price. Suddenly the so-called "auction" has turned into another "direct sale" method.

WoW's auction house is like that, too. Why are we expecting a different (in term of auction house, I mean, without "buy out" price which would of course makes things more expensive) kind of auction house in GW?

But all this is a moot point, as we are not getting one anyway. Even a marketplace is still a "maybe".

[Yawgmoth]

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

For the most expensive items, like those rare minipets, this probably won't be the best system. But then they still have outside auctions (like GWG auction), the party window, and the trade channel. Hell, there might even be an option to put something in the market with no set price and just an "offer" or other text to cause people to have to whisper them to make a deal; much like how the party search is now, except global.

I still don't see how an auction house would be any better than this. I'd much rather just put my items up for sale with a reasonable price tag, and let people buy at their leisure. It makes everything much easier for everyone, without the hassle of bid wars and sniping. It's also easier on the devs to make such a system.

I 100% agree that fast selling for set prices is better for almost all types of goods, for both sellers and buyers and obviously easier for the devs to make. It's just not good for the very rare / high-end items, but there are players that don't like WTS spam or the hassle with creating a Guru account/monitoring a thread so they would put their little rarity on the Marketplace, just to be snagged by a lucky camper.

I really like your idea about a possibility of posting an item with no set price, and allowing to whisp the seller with offer. That would work great for the high-end trading purposes, no need for a real auction house. Even with some people using that just to show off their collections of req.7 unconditional crystallines (or maybe req.6 ) and receive a ton of whispers to stroke their epeeen, like: "OMFG" "wooow!" "gratz, where did you get that?" "100k ok?" "wtf there are no req.7 unconditionals, hax?" "plz gib fre gold" "i trade my rare dead swurd +mini devourer for it" "buy cheap gw gold at www. gwgold.blah and get 1% free!"...

The only little downside to this neat feature are little lame griefers that would say they can buy for a {high price}, made you remove the item from the Marketplace, then laughing and going away, making you lose on the listing payment. A way to prevent that would be allowing manual trade of items listed on Marketplace without a set buyout price.

[Vazze]

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

.... Buying/selling would work the exact same way - seller sets a price and advertises as that price, then waits for a buyer to bite.

That's not how it is, in many cases:
A) Seller has no idea about price so he says "give me an offer"
B) Seller is an experienced trader who insists on getting an offer to learn your highest bid for the item without telling you his price position.
I find both A) and B) annoying but I am willing to trade with A (if seller is B, I say good bye quickly).

[sterbenx2]

"I can tell you that ol' DAT file has a ton of stuff, from last year, this year, four years ago, three offices prior, a staff member's moving sale, somebody's gerbil's birth announcement, and more. Nothing really to say"

Have any of you DAT digggers found the "moving sale" or the "gerbil birth" ??? I doubt it, and I doubt you ever will, why? Cuz they're not in there, I would bet on it. I doubt ANY company would be irresponsible enough to let clutter junk like that lay around in a file that is kept on customers' private computers.

[Officer Dick]

i believe gaile once said there would not be an auction house because of the way the items are handled with the current engine, so it is not possible. Although some limitations can make a buyout market be viable, it is also hardly unlikelly, but an auction is completelly out of question as it has been distinctly mentioned there will not be one, so this discussion is not going anywhere, IF we get anything it will be a b/o market.
I do think its hard for them to implement this the way they handled item ownership, but i do keep some hopes they will put this semi-designed feature on. Thats all we can do, hope...

EDIT: to the above poster, yeah, thats kind of what we call a "joke". Look it up on wikipedia to learn what it is... the point is, theres lots of lost info in the DAT.

[sterbenx2]

Originally Posted by Officer Dick

i believe gaile once said there would not be an auction house because of the way the items are handled with the current engine, so it is not possible. Although some limitations can make a buyout market be viable, it is also hardly unlikelly, but an auction is completelly out of question as it has been distinctly mentioned there will not be one, so this discussion is not going anywhere, IF we get anything it will be a b/o market.
I do think its hard for them to implement this the way they handled item ownership, but i do keep some hopes they will put this semi-designed feature on. Thats all we can do, hope...

EDIT: to the above poster, yeah, thats kind of what we call a "joke". Look it up on wikipedia to learn what it is... the point is, theres lots of lost info in the DAT.

Your name is very fitting sir. You should try being a bit more polite. But mommy probably never taught you how to so I'll try, If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Now, scrape up what little maturity you have and kindly go away.

[MithranArkanere]

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

I 100% agree that fast selling for set prices is better for almost all types of goods, for both sellers and buyers and obviously easier for the devs to make. It's just not good for the very rare / high-end items, but there are players that don't like WTS spam or the hassle with creating a Guru account/monitoring a thread so they would put their little rarity on the Marketplace, just to be snagged by a lucky camper.

I really like your idea about a possibility of posting an item with no set price, and allowing to whisp the seller with offer. That would work great for the high-end trading purposes, no need for a real auction house. Even with some people using that just to show off their collections of req.7 unconditional crystallines (or maybe req.6 ) and receive a ton of whispers to stroke their epeeen, like: "OMFG" "wooow!" "gratz, where did you get that?" "100k ok?" "wtf there are no req.7 unconditionals, hax?" "plz gib fre gold" "i trade my rare dead swurd +mini devourer for it" "buy cheap gw gold at www. gwgold.blah and get 1% free!"...

The only little downside to this neat feature are little lame griefers that would say they can buy for a {high price}, made you remove the item from the Marketplace, then laughing and going away, making you lose on the listing payment. A way to prevent that would be allowing manual trade of items listed on Marketplace without a set buyout price.

But for the very rare items we have forums and WTS. Since you get much more cash form a single 'very rare' it is worth the 'waste of time' to get them sold like that in the slow way.

But for a bunch of Normal Tomes or Some perfect common skin inscribables to be sold for 1..5k?
Direct sales are better for them.